gunwlogo.GIF (2155 bytes)   << Newest Q&A    More Q&A, part 3 >>   Part 2 >>   First Q&A, part 1 >>    Gunwriters    Link page

Custom Search

Part 4, questions & answers until 05.12.1999

G.O.W. Kickback:

Questions and Answers

Answered by: P. T. Kekkonen

akcartr.jpg (15243 bytes)Origin of AK Assault rifle and 7.62x39 cartridge

Somewhere I saw or read that the Germans developed the precursor to the AK-47. I was foolish enough to be $5 on it. From the responses I've received, it looks like I'm wrong about the gun design, but about right on the 7.62 x 39 mm cartridge.

Got any wisdom ? The more information I get, the less I seem to know.

Regards, John W:r

GOW archive photo: A table of some modern versions of 7.62 x 39 mm cartridges. Left column: Yugoslavian, Russian, Chinese, armour-piercing/igniter, light bullet, blank, blank. Right column: Lapua subsonic, wooden bullet, Finnish State Ammunition Factory VPT, Sako, armour-piercing, tracer, Sako subsonic, Lapua hard metal core & tip, high pressure testing.

answer.GIF (573 bytes)   According to the most reliable German sources of information the original 7.9 x 33 mm assault rifle was design of HUGO SCHMEISSER, designer of the very first submachine gun model: MP 18-I. (Earlier Italian OFFICINE VILLAR-PEROSA Modelo 1915 was nothing more but a scaled-down version of FIAT machine gun). Early prototypes of Schmeisser-designed rifle were known as MASCHINENKARABINER 42 (H). They had an action about similar to that of Czechian BRNO/ British BREN light machine guns, appreciated by Hugo Schmeisser. Brno guns were produced also for German Wehrmacht since 1938, when an "artifical republic" of Czecho-Slovakia was annulled and became a part of the Great German Reich as a Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.

The stamped steel construction of German MKb 42s was designed by a firm MERZ-WERKEN in Frankfurt a.M., a manufacturer of typewriters and cash registers (without any previous connection to the gunsmithing but with an experience from the most complicated steel stampings of 1941 - 42 era). Merz-Werken made the outer casing, and a famed firearms manufacturer C.G. HAENEL in Suhl made the active parts of MKb 42 (H). Hugo Schmeisser was a leader of a designer group in Haenel plant. That machine carbine was like a cross-breed of a light machine gun and submachine gun, chambered for the intermediate-sized cartridge of earlier design. The carbine shot "by open bolt", like most of the submachine guns then and today, or it was a "slam firer".

Another German firm WAFFENFABRIK CARL WALTHER at Zella-Mehlis made also prototype rifles chambered for 7.9 x 33 mm POLTE cartridges, into the Merz-designed casing and with about the same action as MKb 42 (H), which was first shot in anger at the Russian front (Cholm) in the summer 1942: Thirty-five rifles from the first prototype batch of 50 Haenel-designed guns were sent for the field test into the battlefield. They were welcomed by the users.

Walther-designed prototype, MKb 42 "W" or "Construction A 115" had an annular gas piston sliding on the barrel, while MKb 42 (H) had a less expensive and more reliably functioning combination of a gas cylinder and piston mounted on the barrel. Single-shot (self loading or "semi-automatic") shooting of MKb 42 (W) was somewhat more accurate, but full-automatic or burst fire shooting of MKb 42 (H) was more steady, since the balance between recoil and a closing slam of the action was perfect..!

For the MASCHINENPISTOLE 43 were picked details from both of these prototypes: Gas piston construction of MKb 42 (H) but firing mechanism with a separate hammer and "closed bolt" shooting from MKb 42 (W). The cartridge, now called as "PISTOLENPATRONE 43", was found to be accurate enough for shooting one by one. The burst fire was allowed to shoot in emergency only. The magazine of machine carbines was re-designed to become more reliable to feed and easier to load. In 1944 allowed ADOLF HITLER the mass-production of this entirely new kind of infantry firearms, and he re-christened it as a: "STURMGEWEHR 44"; an Assault Rifle. Production rate of StG 44 was too slow to alter the course of Second World War.

That 7.9 x 33 mm cartridge was designed by POLTE Plant at Magdeburg in 1938 but idea of intermediate-sized carbine cartridge was a brainstorm of one Captain PIDERIT of Rifle Selection Commission from the tail year 1918 of 1st World War in Germany - if not idea of a Bohemian firearms designer KAREL KRNKA (pronounced as: "krynka", believed usually to be a typing error) and a Swiss professor HEBLER; co-designers of tubular rifle bullets with a range ca. five miles, and some other "too much, too early" inventions, more than a century ago. They actually made prototypes of "Miniature Rifle" and shortened cartridges with caliber as small as 5 mm (.20") in 1892 (SIC !), but the contemporary military authorities were not interested...

The Imperial (and later Soviet) Russian scientist and firearms designer V.G. FYODOROV predicted also arrival of the shortened cartridges for "AVTOMATs" (= assault rifles). Fyodorov designed the first mass-produced one in 1916. The cartridge of existing Avtomat Model 1916 was Japanese 6.5 mm Arisaka with slightly reduced powder charge but a full-sized case. Fyodorov recommended on his books in late 1920s adoption of the bullet size 6.5 mm "if not even smaller" and a rimless or semi-rimmed case with a length shortened ca. 20 % ( to 40 mm). The Russian 5.45 x 40 mm cartridge was actually predicted 70 or more years ago !

The Russian M-43 cartridge was NOT YET designed by the idea of "Old Guru" Vladimir G. Fyodorov. It was NOT design of MIKHAIL T. KALASHNIKOV, but two noted Soviet military cartridge designers YELISAROV (name often mis-spelt as "Elisarov") and BORIS SYEMIN.  M.T. Kalashnikov designed just a family of firearms around already existing cartridge 7.62-mm M-43. It was NOT a copy of German 7.9 x 33 mm Pistolenpatrone 43 (= Polte Versuchspatrone 38), but cloned from earlier GECO cartridge, designed by Director WINTER of a firm GUSTAV GENSCHOW & Co. A.G. in 1934/35.

Nobody know (or tell), how the Russian designers got those rare GeCo cartridges in their hands during the second year of Russo-German War, but they evidently had them! Too many coincidences are no more coincidences: The very same basic case (of Italian MANNLICHER-CARCANO cartridge). The very same case length: 39.5 mm. Similar 1 : 20 taper of cartridge body. Same head-to-shoulder distance and shoulder angle (the headspace, when combined). Until year 1938 the overall length of GeCo 7.75 x 39 mm cartridge was 55 millimeters and the bullet diameter was 7.92 mm, or similar to the Russian M-43 cartridge. (German caliber designation was based on the bore diameter. Rifling grooves of German VOLLMER MKb 35 bores were shallower than those of Soviet 7.62 x 39 mm firearms. First mass-produced one was SKS carbine, design of SERGEY G. SIMONOV in 1945).

Since 1938 the cartridge overall length was extended to 58 mm and as late as in 1942 the bullet diameter was reduced to the "Western" diameter .308"/ 7.83 mm, while the caliber designation became as 7.62 x 39 mm GeCo. German Third Reich was, however, just about adopting the 7.9 x 33 mm Polte cartridge, because of it's already standard size of bullet, rifle bore and rifling grooves, along with the case head and extractor groove dimensions similar to those of  7.9 x 57 mm Mauser case. GeCo had the production capacity of MANNLICHER-CARCANO cases, but all the other German producers of rifle caliber cartridges had the machinery adjusted for MAUSER case heads. Polte was biggest of them, having plants everywhere in The Reich, including the most remote Germany's provinces, like Poland.

Bullet of GeCo cartridge M 35 weighed 9 grams, but it's dimensions were similar to projectile of Russian 7.62 mm M-43 cartridge. Russians were copied the German economy bullet S.m.E. (with an iron core) used in Pistolenpatrone 43 since the very start of mass-production. GeCo cartridges were peacetime products with lead-filled bullets. Those samples, stolen by some Comintern agent and delivered to Soviet-Russia, were made during 1934 - 38 era, since there were no more many communists at large (or even alive) in Germany since 1938. Overall length of cartridge tells also tales about pre-1938 design. O.A.L. of Russian M-43 cartridge is the same 55 millimeters.

GeCo 7.62 x 39 cartridges were designed exclusively for the abortive VOLLMER M 35 Maschinenkarabiner; the very first German assault rifle. There were actually three models of Vollmer machine carbines made since 1934 until 1938, but they were all too fine (read: expensive) arms for military issue, even for the special troops, with their all-machined and hand-fitted parts. Carbines had action with annular gas piston around the barrel, behind the muzzle, and too many delicate parts. Heeres Waffenamt (Weaponry Office of German armed forces) turned down the last, and most complicated, "A 35/III" carbine in 30th August 1938.

Designer HEINRICH VOLLMER continued his efforts for design of submachine guns MP 38, MP 38/40 and MP 40 (often called incorrectly as "SCHMEISSER" submachine guns on the pulp novels). These guns were successful tools of warfare: Especially the MP 40 was inexpensive and easy to mass-produce. At least a million of them were made until the death of Germany in 1945.

Back to the question re German influence on AK-47: There are some resemblances between AK and StG 44, but they are just superficial similarities. M. T. KALASHNIKOV copied details of many American (not German) firearms, including the breech bolt of U.S. M1 Carbine, a safety/selector lever from REMINGTON Model 8 hunting rifle and principle of trigger mechanism from BROWNING AUTO-5 shotgun, but many applications of these ideas are modified or improved by Kalashnikov himself and many major innovations are his designs, without known predecessors.

I don't know, whether Hugo Schmeisser, who fell into the hands of Russians in 1945, was allowed to assist Kalashnikov in his design work. Schmeisser returned later to Suhl (then in the East-Germany) and he was allowed to continue his designer's work in the W.E.B. ERNST THAELMANN plant, which made especially air rifles under the original brand name "HAENEL". Many of these air guns were earlier designs of Hugo Schmeisser. They were well-known and popular in Finland too, decades ago, when I was a youngster.

Actions of German assault rifle (with a tilting breech bolt) and that of AK-47 (with a rotating bolt) are, especially, quite different. So are also cocking and safety arrangements.

26111999; Pete

P.S. You may quess, how imperfect I am thinking my knowledge.! There are, of course, some colleagues in Finland, contributing guns & hunting magazines, who "know ALL about the firearms". One of my friends swaggered so when I met him in 1980. Anothe friend, Master of Arts Matti U.K. Virtanen, who knows A LOT about firearms, including artillery pieces, has NEVER been a boastful "Besserwisser" (= "one who knows all things better"; a German term). - Pete

Whispering .30-06

Hello Pete, What I am looking for is something for a .30-06 that would make it to be a whisper. If I was to handload that would be fine, but I would need info on grains of power and grains of bullets to do so. I would like to make it so it would last. I have the machinery and tools to do this in standard and metric measures. What would you recommend to make this and diagrams and dimensions ? What ever it would take to do it and the best way to do so.

Photographs and prints. The best way to attach it. Anything that I would need to know to do so. For academic study, if you know what I mean. Thanks for any help you have to offer.


answer.GIF (573 bytes) and comments: As an experienced reader (and writer) of between-the-lines text, I understand easily nature of the knowledge, you're needing. Photos and drawings for designs are plentily available from the books published by Paladin Press in Colorado. I think, the 2nd Volume of Silencer History and Performance book by ALAN C. PAULSON is soon available. There are some older titles also existing, like FRANKFORD ARSENAL REPORT, and SFHF as by SIEGFRIED F. HUEBNER (not as scientific as Silencer History and Performance, but contains some interesting drawings).

S.W.O.S. handloading of .30-06 cartridges renders efficient use of very simple designs. Gas volume and pressure are necessarily no more than those of .22 LR rifle. Full-power (factory-loaded) cartridges needs more complicated constructions, and the efficiency is inherently limited, because of the "ballistic crack" of a flying war-head. No design ahead of the muzzle is able to eliminate this flight noise. It is also impossible to develope a war-head, flying without that noise at supersonic velocity.

A phonograph needle (diameter 1.5 mm), a flechette (= miniature dart), a .17 caliber bullet, or a .30 caliber bullet are almost as noisy, and definitely NOT whispering during their supersonic flight. So you must start studies of subsonic handloading first and then think about design of a device, making your rifle a whisper. You can easily defy "Lex Morgenthau" - or similar insane hoplophobic legal restrictions, but to evade Law of Nature, it is - unfortunately - impossible.

Some highly educated friends are still studying exotic projetile point-shapes or coatings, with an intention to curtail a couple of decibels off from the ballistic "crack". It is a fruitless bustle: A projectile is EITHER noisy OR silent in it's flight ! The "trans-sonic noise level" exists (I am one of co-finders of it), but it is practically impossible to adjust the velocity level of projectile matching with Mach .92 to .99 velocity in variable ambient conditions. So it is a most wise way to load the cartridges to become subsonics with a broad marginal, to get bullet velocity no more than 1000 feet per second or 300 meters per second.

25111999; Pete

NOTICE for the unlikely chance that we can publish "G.O.W." still after the turn of Century/Millennium:

Dear Kickback visitors: Please, tell me in your address your home country (e.g. US, UK, NZ, RU, CHI, SE, D, et c.). It is difficult to answer questions without knowledge about the legislature in your country or state, re firearms and equipment related to them, and handloading components available in your homelands. Every country has exclusive firearms legislature and policy about firearms related equipment like silencers. Examples given: In my home country Finland and New Zealand they are entirely free to acquire, possess and use for all purposes, but in Australia they are strictly banned or in USA heavily taxed in 33 states and banned in 17 states. So it is my wish that US visitors adds also abbreviation of the name of their home state. All the information except e-mail addresses shall become deleted immediately after writing of answer or comments. Nothing is recorded permanently. Information shall definitely not "leak" to the pigs of any country or state.

It is difficult to tell, whether some visitor needs handloading data for "silent without silencer loads" or just for "semi-charged loads", without knowledge on his/her homeland and idea on availability of propellants: CLAYS powder or SOKOL POROKH, NORMA R1, VV N 310, or "do-it-yourself Dust-BULLSEYE".

02121999; Pete

5.7 MMJ and "Hard Times" coming

The 5.7 Johnson was factory-loaded in America for a very limited time. I don't remember who did it but I know it was on the open market back in the late 1960s. The 5.7 Johnson was designed by the same Johnson who designed the 1941 Johnson rifle and the Johnson light machine-gun family of weapons.

Gun control may very well be coming to America. The political elite of America are by and large liberal East Coast Americans who have lost all connections to the American firearms tradition that at one time ran deep in the American sole. No one in America hunts anymore. Our media daily bombards us with antigun propaganda, and it is really starting to have an effect on our culture. Gun-owners are looked upon as demons.

Dean A C:o

answer.GIF (573 bytes) and comments: Jo vain, I can recall 5.7 mm Johnson carbines and cartridges, offered for sale in Finland too, more than 30 years ago. Cartridges were factory-loaded in U.S. As far as I can remember, they were "custom loads" with varying headstamps of common M1 Carbine cases, but not exclusive "MMJ" stamps. Unfortunately I have never seen a box of cartridges, but I presume Mr. Erkki Kauppi of SAKO Oy has one in his large collection.

I know very well your problems in U.S. as a member of N.R.A. since 1974 until mid-1980s. You have a wrong National Anthem today: " Land of The Free/ Home of The Brave". (Risum teneatis, amici ?). It must be nowadays: "The East is red". (An anthem of Communist China). I cannot understand your defeatism in U.S.! Do you, or do you not still have your firearms and ammo in your possession or in caches ? I don't just think but I know: you have ! But do your enemies, those East State stalinists, have MORE firearms in their possession or caches than you have ?

I know, they have not, and most of your foes cannot hit even the broad wall of a barn with a handgun within 10 yards. Are those stalinists invulnerable or immortal supermen or superwomen ? They are not.! JFK was a mortal. Robert Kennedy was a mortal. So were also Martin Luther King and Olof Palme in Sweden, each of them once considered to be everlasting human beings.

I know, there is a gang in U.S. known as Handgun Control Inc. A little but noisy club of stalinists. They were hiding among the real human beings, but nowadays they are stepped forth into the publicity. They are no more rats hiding in their holes but like sitting ducks. Even when unarmed, they are dangerous; they are enemies of your freedom. Even when an enemy is sitting in the wheel-chair, he/she may be mortally dangerous, if greedy for power; willing to subjugate and oppress peoples. Never forget Franklin D. Roosevelt: Remember Federal Firearms Act 1934.! Never start the conversion with enemy: You'll presumably meet with defeat.

"Omni spes in ferrum" said Ancient Romans. "Omni jus ex sclopetum" is the same truth after invention of the gunpowder and the primitive firearms. Irons - nothing but the irons - are on your side if you are on their side. Irons are unable to function without you, as well as you are incapable without your firearms. This is the reason, why the enemy will try to disarm you. These are just plain facts but still facts.! Don't believe on complex lines of argument. Usually they are falsehoods.

The real democracy is "a supremacy of majority". You are the majority still today, but how long time ? Don't wait the grim future, when you'll become a minority. Freedom, once lost, shall NEVER come back..! Your Federal Firearms Act 1934 was, example given, thought to be a provisional system of taxation for financing of "The New Deal". It was thought that when the era or depression is over, the FFA -34 is done it's duty. Era of the depression was over more than 60 years ago, but the FFA -34 was not revoked: American gun-owners were like "milking cows" because of extra taxation of special firearms, and equipment related on the firearms. Nobody knew or recalled that it was the time for revocation of that "Lex Morgenthau" in 1939.

Most American gun-owners actually don't know the REAL motive of FFA -34. "Gang Wars" were not credible explanation for enacting of it. The era of prohibition was almost over and the big bosses of The Mob like Al Capone were in the jailhouses or slain. Henry Morgenthau was not a policeman but a finance expert with a vocation: "To rob all the extra money from goyims, and then rob still more money". (The "goyim" is a Yiddish word, meaning "a native").

Nobody has told to me the motive of Firearms Control Inc. activists, but it is presumably no more greediness for money. It is greediness for power, and lust to subjugate the peoples when the citizens are no more able to defend themself by ANY means. This programme of oppression, ALWAYS starting with disarmament, was actually an immortal idea of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin and Rosa Luxemburg, planned in 1905 and published on the Complete Works by V.I. Lenin Volume XIX page 326, but I call this way of thinking as "the stalinism", because I am a Finn. Sixty years ago Finnish people became conscious of stalinism.

You, Americans, have also an enemy, just like the Red Army rushing into our country in 30th November 1939. Your enemy is MORE dangerous than Russian Army, because it is not only avalanching towards your trenches: It is approaching your doors, or and it is already inside your homes, since the skilled propagandists, those "Engineers of the Human Brains" hired by the enemy, are exploiting every channel of the mass-media.

During the Finnish Winter War 1939 - 40 there were just two daily radio transmissions from Moscow or Petrozavodsk in Finnish, fifteen minutes each, and the propaganda, screamed by "Moskovan Tiltu" (a female Finnish-speaking agitator) was too ungainly and untrue to be thought nothing but liturgies of jests. Your enemy controls most of TV channels, wireless and majority of press; I know. They have huge funds. So they have supremacy of information. But they have also brain (easy to spurt out). They have a heart (easy to perforate).

And you have still your firearms. How long time you can possess them ? Depends on you: If you still believe in the old myth that: "it is wrong or disgraceful to slay unarmed enemy", the "harmless" enemy will be very soon banging your door and confiscating your irons; ALL of them, not ONLY the handguns. (I presume, you know the "Pyatilyetka" = "Five Years Plan" of Handgun Control Inc. - based on the Penal Law of Soviet Union - signed by Josif V. Stalin). The decisive encounter between pro-gun and anti-gun teams is predicted usually as: "The Second U.S. Civil War".

By the rules of a war propaganda, it is essential to lampoon the opponent by the phrases like: "They are not human beings at all !". Gun-owners are branded as "demons", you told. It is by the rule of war propaganda. You can see, the U.S. II Civil War is already broken out (actually almost 66 years ago) but it is a propaganda war. The gun-owners are always doomed to lose that kind of warfare. Britons lost. Australians lost. This war ends not until there are no more gun-owners - or until there are no more members of anti-gun team left. You must therefore become as the demons, and to be never more just like "silent lambs".

And once again a lesson, taught by the history: It is unwise to leave the survivors. In Finland this cardinal mistake was made after our 1918 Civil War. Finnish people has paid the penalty from that error past 81 years: Two wars, many political turbulences, and - the everlasting FEAR. Our strict firearms control is based on Firearms and Ammunition Act, enacted in the late year 1918 with an intention to prevent next Red Revolt, since about 80 per cent of the Red rebels survived to become a menace. The method to ward off that menace was, of course, a control - curtailment of the Civil Rights of ALL citizens. If this sad story is learnt nothing else to other peoples, it is taught at least a war cry: "No survivors ! No captives !"
(Feel free to spread these instructions..!)

30111999; (60th Anniversary of Finnish Winter War); Pete

Destroyer carbine

Dear Pete, thanks for the quick response to my question. For your information, the Destroyer is a Spanish bolt-action, five shot carbine. Its design is similar to the 95 Mauser, but uses two rear locking lugs like the Lee-Enfield. It is very light and handy. The standard chambering was 9mm Largo, though it has been modified to fire 9mm para, .38 Super, 7.62 mm Tokarev, and .45 ACP. It was used by Spanish police and paramilitary forces, beginning in the early 20s. Several thousand were imported into the USA several years ago, and promptly disappeared. There are no spare parts available for them (that I am aware of). I believe that they may have been destined for use as silenced carbines.

Mitch WerBell of the original MAC company built several for the army during the Viet-Nam war. It was illustrated in a couple of Truby's books, if you are interested. I would love to build a silenced version, but I unfortunately reside in the People's Republic of California, so until I move to a more civilized state, this will not be possible. I'll try to send pictures when mine is done. Thanks again, and if there are any more questions about it, please feel free to contact me.

Sincerely, Dave

answer.GIF (573 bytes) and comments: Many thanks for the information. Now I can also remember that carbine, introduced by some Finnish arms magazine not so many times ago. Article was written by "a moving band toil", without a trace of enthusiasm. It was so easy to forget soon after reading, as well as the name of that writer and the magazine. I can see, you are seeking a new home country. New Zealand seems to be good for you: Acquiring, possession and use of firearms silencers is unlimited, and the climate is similar to that of Californian People's Republic. In Finland the annual disaster (cold and dark winter months since November until the late April) is coming again. Jo vain: Silencers are allowed in Finland, but firearms control is strict here. Example given: I have not a right to possess any kind of them (legally).

In U.S., including California, there is on the horizon an Era of Freedom, just like the pre-1934 era. Anti-gun activists are overdone their terrorism by the "Pyatilyetka" (= "Five Year Plan" in Russian). Some kind of Second Civil War is coming in the States. Really "..some kind of !". Like hunting of sitting ducks, allured to expose themselves by the boastful propaganda of "Slick Billy". (Thank you, Mr. President !) Those Handgun Control Inc. zealots were like rats in their holes before these days, but today they all are well-known - leaders and members of HCI - inflated by the flush of victory and the delusions: "American gun-owners believe that an unarmed foe is a harmless enemy" or: "The gun-owners are rather willing to give up all their firearms than to slay their unarmed foes"... Well, well; one who'll live, will see. At least I am able to predict that HCI shall no more get sympathy from the White House since the end of Slick Billy- era, and the "Incomprehensive Mercy" of the American gun-owners is ending: 66 years of resignation were enough, or too many. The War Cry is, or it shall be: "No Survivors !"

But now back to theme DESTROYER Carbine: You must presumably stick to 1.38" Overall Cartridge Length if you'll feed the 7.62 mm P cartridges from the magazine. I have not 110 gr RN .308" SIERRA bullets in hand (importer of them went to the liquidation in Finland); so I cannot tell, whether it is possible to load cartridges with them within that 1.38" C.O.L. limit. I have a kit of reloading dies, made by LYMAN, for .30 MAUSER cartridges, but any & all Russian TT-33 pistols and submachine guns accepts the cartridges, resized and handloaded with these dies.

If the carbine action allows feed of cartridge into the chamber without feed from magazine, you may use more heavy pointed .308 caliber bullets. Original MAUSER rifle action is recommended to feed through a magazine only, because of it's extractor construction, but I think, the extractor of Destroyer allows single shot feed and closing of a bolt without extractor breakage.

01121999; Pete

Do you know S.W.O.S .22s ?

Other than the CCI .22 CB Short, which is a readily available cartridge in the US that may cycle my MARLIN Papoose autoloader and still be quiet enough, not to bother my neighbors when I'm squirrel hunting ?


answer.GIF (573 bytes)  SWOS cartridges are Silent WithOut Silencer ammunition. Essential cartridges for the servile peoples of some subdued nations, where possession and use of the firearms silencers is banned or restricted. There were (still are ?) REMINGTON .22 CB Long cartridges and FEDERAL .22 CB Longs, able to become fed from a .22 LR box magazines. No autoloader rifle is, however, able to give automatic functioning with these nice "silent without silencer" cartridges. Once upon a time I designed a plastic bolt for then-new Remington VIPER .22 LR rifle, able to feed .22 CB Long ammo from it's curved box but unable to cycle (give an automatic feed) because of ca. five-fold too heavy bolt weight. Those .22 CB Long cartridges were also loaded by Remington. Actually it is not an excessive toil or a source of delayed firepower to cycle the rifle action manually before each shot, when compared with a bolt action rifle, but an autoloader MUST be AUTOloader despite of low cartridge power; so I thought.

Remington sent never a reply to my letter, containing suggestions for production of a steel & aluminium bolt for shooting of .22 LR Subsonic Hollowpoint-bulleted cartridges and a steel reinforced plastic bolt (weight 1½ oz) for .22 CB Long cartridges from .22 LR Viper and earlier Remington NYLON 66 autoloader rifles. (Long, LONG time ago there were actually duraluminium bolts made for the "Gallery Model" Nylon 66s, chambered for .22 Short). With the existing construction and recoil-/ mainspring powers those .22 LR rifles were or are able to cycle the Standard, Super, Hyper, Ultra or High Power/ Hi-Speed loads only. And the bullet flight noise of them is as loud - & as bothering - as that of .220 Swift cartrige, when shot from a silenced rifle.

In your terminology, what means the word: "Cycle" ? Reliable feed from the box magazine ? (Usually impossible mission with .22 Shorts, if the rifle is designed for the .22 LR cartridge). Or an automatic extraction/ ejection of the cartridge case and re-cocking of the action ? Some .22 LR autoloaders - rifles and handguns - are really able to complete these functions, when manually loaded with .22 Short cartridges - usually High-Velocity loads. A rifle with tubular magazine may also feed these cartridges.

WINCHESTER Model 190 rifle was able to give a perfect functioning with rather mild ELEY .22 Short (Olympic Pistol) cartridges because of it's light bolt-weight, but this rifle has been discontinued years ago. A Russian MARGOLIN .22 LR pistol was also able to eject and re-cock, when .22 Short cartridges were manually fed into it's chamber. I have no shooting experience with CCI .22 CB Short, but I can see from tables, they have a power similar to those Eley .22 Short Pistol loads. I have also never examined the Marlin Papoose rifle.

You presumably don't know, I reside in the most wretched region of Finland known as North-Carelia, earning about as much money as an average citizen of North-Korea. (This is not, unfortunately, a joke !). So, I am unable to keep my knowledge about availability of ammo in U.S.A up-to-dated. The most fresh GUN DIGEST yearbook I could afford was 41st Annual Edition of year 1987. In 1986, when it was printed, there were CCI .22 CB Longs already available, but those loads of Federal and Remington were not yet. Today is a Finnish importer or CCI and Federal cartridges went to the liquidation.

01121999; Pete

TEST REPORTS:  Economy Loads for .30-06

I now have tried the 123 gr Rainier Ballistics bullets in my .30-06 and the results were disappointing. I tried charges 7 to 12 grains of Norma R1 behind the bullet in my .30-06.

Independent of charge weight the first bullet with a cold barrel was subsonic and the following was supersonic. At 95 meters the difference in points of impact was more than 30 cm between the first and the following shots..!

The friction of the bullet seemed to be much higher than with ordinary jacketed bullet as the barrel gets very hot. The barrel was heavily fouled after 20 shots. I did not chronograph any of the Rainier bullets because of the result above.

Later i have tried Lapua's S-374 bullet (123gr FMJ) with good results:

Powder: Norma R1. Primer: LR.

Charge: average (m/s) max (m/s) min (m/s)
    6,2gr        260             263             258
    7,15gr      310             325             304
    9,5gr        391             399             385

The accuracy was good with 3-shot groups: Smaller than 30 mm at 80 m and no vertical stringing. The charges was thrown with a LEE Powder Measure and may vary 0,1 gr cartridge to cartridge.

I also tried a few loads with Norma's 147gr FMJ bullet:
Powder: Norma R1. Primer: LR.

V3 (m/s)
Charge:    avg min max
7,15gr     305  302  310
  8,4gr      339  335  343

I only had a few of those Norma 147 gr FMJs pulled from their training ammunition "Jaktmatch"

In Sweden the "blank powder" (used in blank-catridges with wooden bullet) is the same as the powder used to load 24 grams, 12 gauge shells for Skeet shooting. This is a flake powder made porous by adding potassium-nitrate grains before forming the flakes and later washing the kernels in water to dissolve the the nitrate. The degree of porosity, and thereby the burning rate or velocity is controlled by the amount of added potassium nitrate.

When manufacturing "Norma R1", the added amount of potassium-nitrate is larger than the amount added to "blank powder". The kernel size is smaller and the surface treatment about the same...

I have tried this powder with many bullet weights in my .30-06 from 77gr .32 A.C.P bullets to 220 gr RN. I have found that independent of bullet weight, the maximum charge will be the same 16 gr. The reason for this is probably that all of the powder is burned before the bullet has enter'd the rifling. So 16 gr Norma R1 produce just enough gas to fill the .30-06 case to 300 MPa!

(PLEASE NOTE! I'll take NO reponsability for the loading data. It worked in my rifle but may not work for others.!)

Ha det Bra !

Peter (Sweden)

answer.GIF (573 bytes) and comments: Many thanks for your test report ! We were truly lacking the information for .30-06 and RAINIER bullets. Unfortunately we have not Norma powders available in Finland, but just VihtaVuori and Hodgdon propellants. This information shall, however, become issued all around the World - not only in Finland.! And now I can tell to the Finnish importers, looking after some new products, about something what the most forward handloaders are left without, asking: "Where is the Grandma's coffee mill..?" This joke is explained by an earlier up-to-date of "Kickback".

About the RAINIER BALLISTICS bullet: Lead bullet seems still to be a LEAD bullet, despite of a thin copper plating on it. It is good for the mildest handloads only, and THE LUBRICATION of a bullet seems to be essential. Especially the 123 grains projectile is a kind of compression-expanding bullet, like old Austrian LORENZ or Swiss BUCHHOLZ bullets for the muzzleloader military and target rifles in 1850s.

A heavy charge of rapidly burning powder (jess, 7 grains/ 0.454 grams of Norma R1 is a HEAVY charge behind an unlubricated LEAD projectile) developes a sudden rise of the chamber pressure or a shock wave, which "hammers" on the bullet base. The "anvil" is an inertia of bullet's point. Bullet acts as a rivet in the long conical throat between the chamber and bore.

But why NOT so, when the FIRST shot was discharged ? Why the second and next shots gave erratic, disappointing, results ??! Explanation is simple. "Elementary, dear Watson !": The Bore Condition was became different between the first and second shot. You had some storage oil or grease on the bore and throat walls before the first shot, but a "dry contact" between steel and copper when the next shots were discharged. Barrel temperature has not notable effect to the bore friction, but one tightly fitting bullet is able to remove lubricant from the bore; even the thin oil film. How long time one can run a car engine without any lubrication of pistons and bearings ?

Lubrication of bullets (or a bore, before EACH shot) seems so to be essential; not only beneficial, when the rather soft lead bullets are shot from .30-06 rifle. Lube keeps the bore condition uniform, shot-after-shot. In the early 1980s, when I committed a lot of test-shooting with .308 Winchester rifles, I lubricated the FMJ bullets too in a molten ALOX-Beeswax mixture used for lubrication of cast lead-alloy bullets.

Those FMJs were the same LAPUA S374s you preferred. They are good for the Economy Loads, velocities up to 650 meters per second, and also for subsonics if some velocity variables are allowed. Lead bullets are good for loads UP TO the sonic velocity. For higher speed-levels are jacketed bullets better - but, alas, the loads are no more "Silent Without Silencer", URGENTLY needed in the countries where possession of firearms silencers is banned - or excessively taxed.

Do not throw your surplus Rainier bullets into the lake or river: For the NEXT test-shooting session: Load the cartridges with FOUR to FIVE grains charges of R1 powder and dip-lubricate the seated bullets. Almost any solid fatty substance is fit for dip-lubrication when melted. Our test-shooter Markus has used the purified bovine (neat's) fat or vaseline as a bullet lube, with a success. Nothing else (read: more expensive stuff) is needed but some kind of grease to keep up the consistent bore condition and lessen the friction between steel and copper.

I have tried to contact Rainier Ballistics and teach a simple process for making of a slippery copper sulphide "skin" on the copper plating, but they are presumably not interested in that idea "Not Invented There". I am unable to mention by name ANY handloading component manufacturer on the Globe, willing to support our idea of Economy Handloading; especially loading of the subsonic cartridges for the centerfire rifles. Bullet manufacturers are always blaming us because of: "Giving impetus to MISUSE of our products". (For WHAT use the rifle bullets are made ? To become just the pretty beads of necklaces ??).

Benefits of the producers (or actually: the intermediaries) and "gunslingers" are conflicting: Extravagance by handloaders, like use of 3 grams powder charges instead of 3 grains (enough for target practise loads) is beneficial to the powder manufacturers, but especially to the intermediaries. Therefore are the Economy Loads - and Economy Tricks generally - scorned by them who are losing those pennies or cents, saved by gun-users.

There is a vast majority of gunwriters - contributing to the printed magazines, on the side of intermediaries. The "lailty" reader is thinking: "This fellow is one of us !" since laymen don't know where is the Line, or a Front, between the friends of gun-users and those others - friends of the fleecers. Some other Gunwriters (note the capital:"G") are, however, attending to firearms-user's interests. Welcome to Our Club !

Many thanks also for "the powder profile" of R1. As far as I know, it's composition is about similar to that of VihtaVuori's N 310, with potassium-nitrate addition to make surface of the kernels porous and so add the surface area/ easiness to ignite. Similar is also the Calorimetric Energy, 4100 Joules per gram, or somewhat more, up to 4200 J.p.g. or an absolute maximum C.E. available for single-base powder with inorganic oxidating addition, like potassium-nitrate.

N 310 is a "chopped thread" powder. Kernels of R1 seems to be (on a photograph) flakes, with an irregular shape but regular size, just passing a screen of 1 x 1 millimeter square mesh. Flatness and small size of the kernels can make R1 really the powder, burning out completely in a .30-06 case, before a medium-heavy bullet (say 170 grains) starts to enter the rifling.

In the German book "Handbuch für den Wiederlader" by K.D. MEYER is a short statement about R1: "A very offensive revolver powder, for .38 Special, et cetera... Useable for the very light loads only". A very promising remark to the researcher, who is hunting an ideal powder for subsonic rifle loads: A propellant with zero per cent content of nitro-glycerol, since the ideal powder must be useable, despite of the Northern Exposure.

Herrn Meyer knew some powders, today entirely unknown to the American handloading experts, like LAFLIN & RAND's century-old original "dust" BULLSEYE, useable for loading of subsonic Cartridges Guards for .30-40 KRAG rifle (some of them with TWO tandem-seated 220 grains bullets) or Guards cartridges of American SPRINGFIELD Model 1903 rifle, chambered for .30-03 cartridge (with 220 gr bullet) and, since 1906, also for .30-06 cartridge (with 150 grains GLEINICH's Spitzer bullet). Safe charge of "Dust" Bullseye powder was: "apparently able to burn out, before 220 grains bullet had time to move from the case mouth - at all". Your observation about 16 grains charge of R1 in .30-06 seems to be correct.

Behind an easily expanding, already somewhat oversized, rather soft lead bullet is 1/4 of this charge enough, and lubrication of the bullets is also needed. You may, at least I hope so, become aware of meaning of my often told slogan: "Silence without a silencer !" and another phrase: "When you load the rapid powders, there are not wrong choices of propellant, but the charge weight may be wrong !"

16111999; Pete

Firepower for Finnish people

Mr. Kekkonen; I am a machinegun dealer in the United States and was wondering what the gun laws are like in Finland ? I guess you are located in Finland and I enjoy your articles. Can you own and manufacture machineguns for civilians in Finland or do you have to be a dealer? Please give me more info on the gun laws in your country regarding machineguns.

Thanks Brian  FFL/SOT

answer.GIF (573 bytes)   Personally I have no more right to own or possess the firearms or loaded cartridges at all; not even the single-shot .22 rimfire rifle chambered exclusively for the BB Caps. In Finland is the "gunwriter" a contributor of PRINTED media. Internet is not yet a media at all, since Finnish Law on "Freedom" of the Press is 80 years old. I have been a Black-Listed Writer since 15th Aug. 1996, without right to get my texts printed.

Finnish collectors of firearms have several thousands of privately and legally owned shootable machine guns, especially if they are collectors with "Official Status". Licences for acquire and possess full-auto firearms were previously granted by a Provincial Government but since the amendments of Firearms Law and Act a couple of years ago, those Collector's Licences are granted by Ministry of the Interior.

Licences for acquiring and possession of firearms are granted by local police. Arms & militaria collectors with "official collector's status" can usually get all the licences easily, if they have made known in their so called "collection plan" also an intention to collect full-automatic military firearms. Some collectors are interested in - example given - just the bolt action rifles or handguns, if not only the shotguns and other hunting/sporting firearms. Most of them have reserved option for acquiring full-automatic firearms too.

Collecting is an escalating hobby: A beginner may get licences to acquire just rifles or handguns only at first. (The pocket sized pistols are, however, classified in Finland more "dangerous" than .50 caliber machine guns - or at least they were so. After the amendments of our Game Law and Game Act in 1993 it is possible to get a handgun for use as a "put-down instrument" in hunting even without any collector's status).

More experienced collectors, having accepted storage place with all the needed bolts, bars and safe closets for their firearms, may get acquirement licences for the full-auto firearms too. In the late 1980s until mid-1990s Finnish Army sold quantities of surplus firearms to the collectors; including artillery pieces and trench mortars. Unfortunately all the firearms with caliber 20 mm or more must be de-activated (including anti-tank rifles L-39). Small arms are sold usually in shootable condition, because a vast majority of collectors think de-activated arms as a worthless junk. De-activated firearms, sold in Army auctions or depot stores, were more expensive than similar shootable weapons. Some collectors may, of course, collect "deco-firearms" only.

All kinds of firearms are free to possess, if they are made/ designed before year 1890 (unless used for shooting) including machine guns. Replica firearms (of pre-1890 design) are still licence-mandatory, but this injustice may become amended, if some daring soul shall tell tales to European Union's Attorney General, who is nowadays "white". His predecessor was "pink". (I don't classify peoples on the basis of skin color but on the grounds of their thinking. Reds and greens are to me no more human beings at all, but just the chunks of living tissue, good for the ballistic or toxicologic tests only).

This "firearms dealer" privilegion (?) or obligation (??), you mentioned, is unknown system in Finland, as well as the classification of the firearms dealers. Any sporting goods store may sell all kinds of firearms, including machine gun, if the buyer has a permission to acquire such instrument.

Collectible firearms are today usually imported, because Army has sold out most of those surplus wheeled MAXIMs and "EMMA" guns (= Russian DP-27 light machine gun) - or they are waiting for calming down of the "hoplophobia", boosted by some contributors of newspapers or magazines like "Family Magazine SEURA", and by wireless or television - of course. (HOPLOPHOBIA = a kind of mental disease; pathological fear of weapons, especially firearms. Carefulness with the arms is not the hoplophobia but just a sane behavior).

Majority of Finnish journalists are neutral, but there are also many alumni of Tampereen Yliopisto's Institute of Communication Science, indoctrinated by the Stalinistic socialism, as the columnists of most influential press, wireless and TV. They are still anti-gun minded "on the principle" although the wave of neo-radicalism is subsided after the fall of Soviet administration in Russia. Hoplophobia is, of course, imported also from West (England and U.S.A) along with that new curse, known as the green activism. Many ex-Stalinists are today members of the Green Party, even in the Parliament of Finland.

Machine guns are not manufactured for collectors, since they may be very expensive if custom-made. Some collectors are made legally-owned submachine guns (SUOMI KP/31) from semi-finished or unfinished forgings sold in Army depots. The neatest example of craftsmanship is presumably a miniature KP/31, shooting a special rimless variation of .25 A.C.P. cartridge. (Semi-rimmed .25 caliber ammo is unfit to the drum magazine).

Of course there are also many home-made submachine guns built, usually shooting .22 LR cartridges, but those guns are made illegally, by the peoples having no right to possess firearms at all. It is possible to confiscate "illegal" guns, but of course impossible to plunder the know-how and craftsmanship.

By the Law, there are just three acceptable reasons for possession of firearms in Finland: Hunting (most usual), target shooting and firearms collecting. Just the collectors may own legally full-auto firearms. It is "de facto" impossible to get firearms possession licence for self-defence or home protection only in Finland. (Self-defence or defence of the property is allowed "de jure" but banned "de facto". Attacker is always the "victim" and defender is a "criminal", even if one has not discharged a gun, pointed towards the attacker. This is a Finnish "court house practice"; not a law).krsaimin.jpg (19388 bytes)

Archive photo: Finnish "Reservist's Rifle" is a semi-auto extended barrel version of Norinco AKM. It is commonly added with some optical sight. The muzzle is threaded by the factory to accept a "MPV" suppressor.

Since 1944 we have no more/ not yet officially existing Civil Guard, but in some regions is activity in the Reservist organizations an accepted reason to get a permission for possession of an assault rifle, usually a self-loading "Reservist's Rifle" but sometimes also one with a full-auto selector, depending on the attitude of local police chief.

Firearms legislature is still unfinished in Finland. It is possible to legalize further the possession of privately owned full-automatic firearms, if a defence organization like Civil Guard shall become again an official part of military forces, and when the voice (= noise) of anti-gun mob is suppressed in the media.

16111999; Pete

haylumip.jpg (15556 bytes)Story of The White Death

I am a retired military sniper outside of Finland. For many years I have heard stories about Simo Häyhä, but I have never found any books. Can you recommend any? Are any available in languages other than Finnish? (German, English, Japanese I can read). Otherwise it is time for learning a new language !


answer.GIF (573 bytes)  Book about Simo Häyhä was written even in Finnish not until a year ago, by Master of Arts PETRI SARJANEN. Many readers of it, including me, have expressed a desire to the publisher that this book must become translated to American English by some really proficient translator. Point of the time is favorable: That book shall become a bestseller in U.S. and Canada.

Interest in Finnish war history is stimulated during this very year, because 60th Anniversary of start of the Winter War is coming. It is in 30th Nov. 1999. Many peoples in the North American continent are nowadays really learning Finnish, but our language is very difficult to learn.

I know at least two friends able to translate that book "VALKOINEN KUOLEMA" (= The White Death... or "Byelaya Smyert" in Russian). One of these friends is born in Arizona and living in my home-town Joensuu. So, I am able to proof-read personally every page and line of the text. Some minor technical errors found from the book are already corrected, and there are some historical facts about the Winter War revealed after the publishing of the first edition of "Valkoinen Kuolema".

I don't know yet, whether my friend has enough time to translate that book, but I presume that edition in English shall become available in the future... not so distant.!

Author of the book, Petri Sarjanen, has just finished story of Major Larry A. Thorne/ Lauri A. Törni, third volume of a trilogy, and he was also a member of that expedition which found remnants of  Larry A. Thorne from mountain on the border between Viet-Nam and Laos.

16111999 (two weeks before the Anniversary); Pete

Reader's Kickback: Finnish War History in English

Some titles about that sought-after theme are or may still be available. One is a story of Major LAURI ALLAN TÖRNI/ LARRY A. THORNE; U.S.Army (or SVEN "STEVE" KORNIE in a novel and movie). Unfortunately I cannot remamber the author of this document: "SOLDIER UNDER THREE FLAGS". It may be still available from the shops of BARNS & NOBEL in USA.

Another book is: "FINLAND AT PEACE & WAR", by H.M Tillotson, Micael Russel LTD Wilby Hall Wilby Norwich Norfolk England. The first edition was published in 1993. Code: ISBN 0 5955 222 3.

Juha Saalismaa

Squirrel rifle 7.62 mm Tokarev

Dear Pete, I've enjoyed your G.O.W columns very much. Silent cartridges have recieved little mention in the mainstream gun press. I have a question. Has the 7.62 x 25 mm Tokarev pistol cartridge had any testing done for low velocity loads ?

The reason I am asking is that I have a Spanish Destroyer carbine I am thinking of modifying to this caliber as a small game rifle, and mainly because I enjoy the unusual. Do you have any advice about a starter load for this?

Thank you very much, Dave

answer.GIF (573 bytes)  My problem is lack of knowledge about Destroyer carbine. Mauser action ? Original caliber ? What kind of magazine; easy or difficult to modify for use of extra-long 7.62 mm Tokarev cartridges ? Some special loads may have cartridge length overall 1.7 inch or so while a C.O.L. of a factory load is mere 1.38" maximum.

Original designation of this cartridge is 7.65 x 25 mm BORCHARDT, developed for German C-93 pistol in 1892. When loaded with heavier charge, it became 7.63 mm or .30 MAUSER in 1896, and in Soviet-Russia as 7.62 mm TOKAREV (a.k.a. 7.62-mm P, sometimes mis-spelt as 7.62-mm L in U.S.A., because Russian letters P and L are almost similar in their appearance).

The actual 7.62-mm L cartridge is a rimmed military rifle cartridge of 1908 year's pattern with pointed hollow-base L bullet; the very most common type of 7.62 mm Mosin-Nagant cartridge since 1908 until post-World War II era. Letter L comes from a word: "lyohkaya" = "light" and P derives from the word: "pistolyet" = "pistol". 7.63 mm Mauser pistols were popular in Russia since introduction of them, long before adoptment of TOKAREV pistol in 1930.

Borchardt, Mauser and Tokarev cartridges are practically all similar: Case dimensions are equal and the bullet diameter .309" is same. Bore diameter .30" is also same in all three models of pistols. Bullet weight 5.5 - 5.6 grams is also equal. Load of Borchardt cartridge was milder than that of Mauser or Tokarev cartridges, which have about equal power and they are interchangeable. For Borchardt or MANNLICHER Model 1896 pistols are Mauser/Tokarev cartridges too strong fodder.

I know just one instance, when somebody has handloaded 7.62 x 25 mm cartridges for the adapter barrel of his 12 gauge shotgun. Usual fodder were captured Russian P-cartridges, but once upon a time he tried to shoot Finnish assault rifle bullets (pointed FMJ, weight 8 grams/ 123 grain, diameter .311") since his 12" long adapter barrel (or barrel liner) was lathe-turned from a length of Mosin-Nagant Model 1891 rifle barrel, with a groove diameter that same .311". Powder was VihtaVuori's "Konepistooliruuti" (= submachine gun powder) N 13, or since 1st Sept. 1973: N 330. Charges were 200 milligrams or .20 gram/ 3.1 grains. Shots missed the aimpoint of fixed sights adjusted for shooting of "Russian submachine gun cartridges" and availability of assault rifle bullets was uncertain. My friend had those 7.62-mm P cartridges ca. 10 000 rounds and he has still several thousands rounds of them. (55 + years old but still in good shootable condition: Russian powders are everlasting).

Shots of his handloads were not noisy; they were subsonic. In the early 1960s there were no chronographs in possession of individuals. Cartridge manufactures and powder plant might still have ancient LeBOULENGE chronographs, because all velocity readings were V25s (at 25 meters from the muzzle), even in the Game Law and Game Act, enacted in 1962 - and made more strict in 1969, due to the protectionistic efforts. (Those regulations were revoked not until 1993, despite of the general knowledge on the purulent CORRUPTION behind all of the refusals and restrictions or compulsions, applying to the firearms used for hunting in Finland).

Maximum chamber pressure of Mauser/Tokarev cartridge is 2600 atmospheres, when used in autoloader handguns or submachine guns, but when loaded EXCLUSIVELY for a bolt-action carbine, into the modern solid-headed cases, it is possible to set the limit of pressure to ca. 3000 atmospheres. (Actually, the heads of modern cases are slightly more strong than those of .223 Rem. shells, owing maximum allowed chamber pressure 3700 atmospheres). So it is possible to load 7.62 x 25 mm carbine cartridges with rifle powder and use bullets as heavy as 220 grains.

Of course you need a "free-bore", i.e. a long, gently tapered "leade" or "throat" between the chamber and rifling of a bore for your carbine, since the case neck of this cartridge is very short. If you'll start to shoot cast lead alloy-bullets, it is essential to adjust the cartridge overall length so that the bullet base is inside the neck - NOT in the powder space - of a cartridge. For cartridges with a limited powder capacity, like 7.62-mm P, jacketed bullets are O.K. also for subsonic loads.

For small-game hunting is overly long and heavy bullet needless, and the chamber dimensions may be non-freebored (with a throat cone with 5 degr. 30 min./ 11 degr. angle, similar to that of SAAMI/ANSI chamber drawing for .30 Luger). It is more easy to ream the throat longer - if necessary - than to shorten the excessively long thoat cone. I presume, a 110 grains roundpoint bullet (designed for .30 US M1 Carbine) is good for your purposes. If you need somewhat more heavy projectile, you may use more pointed bullet, which may also be boat-tailed. (That boat-tail may, however, reduce the powder-space volume of case too much. Use of a pistol or shotgun powder may then develope excessive chamber pressure. Recommended is a very dense rifle powder like Hodgdon BALL-C (2), if it burns cleanly. (This is for the jacketed bullets with a weight 150 grains or more).

For 110 gr RN bullets you may use some shotshell/handgun powder like ALLIANT's "UNIQUE" or "RED DOT" (or VihtaVuori's Konepistooliruuti N 330 or shotshell powder N 340). Starting loads of them are ca. 4 grains. If the bullet velocity is supersonic ("cracky" flight noise is heard from the direction of target), you may reduce the charge with .1 grain intervals. Safe minimum charges are ca. 3.5 grains, but this estimation is based just on calculations, not test-shooting. Bullet may be soft-pointed, since the slow striking velocity is unable to cause "Dum-Dum Effect" or expansion of the bullet point. Lubrication of the bullet is beneficial. It eliminates a lot of velocity variation or shall reduce the extreme velocity spread, shot after shot.

Recommended groove diameter of the barrel's bore is .308" and rifling twist 1 - 10". (Some custom-made barrels may be available with 1 - 8" twist. It is a recommended choice, since the rotation of bullet cannot be excessive if the velocity is subsonic. Briton Sir JOSEPH WHITWORTH shot in 1855 lead bullets from his .451 caliber muzzle-loaded "extremity test rifle" with 1 - 1" twist. (Jess; one inch twist of hexagonal rifling !!).

Too "slow" rifling rate, 1 - 12 or more, is insufficient to stabilize heaviest bullets by the rotation. The very best selfloader .30 caliber military rifle for use with a silencer, M1 Carbine with an enclosed gas piston action, was made unsuited for silencer use because of it's too slow 1 - 16" twist. Somebody was mis-understood the drawings ?? Intented twist might be 1 - 6" for use of 220 gr (or even 250 grains ?) bullets of M1 Carbine's subsonic cartridges !

(It is, of course, possible to load Duplex Bullet M1 carbine cartridges with two tandem-seated 110 grains standard bullets, or two 71 gr .32 A.C.P. bullets shot with possible muzzle velocity 900 fps. Possible velocity of two 110 gr bullets is no much more than 600 fps. Stability of "heavy Duplex Ball load" may be questionable when shot from bore with 1 - 16" rifling but functioning of autoloading action is positive - AT LEAST so..! Two 71 gr or 93 gr tandem-seated FMJ RN bullets are more sure and safe choice for the subsonic M1 Carbine cartridges).

Existing M1 carbines are so able to shoot bullets, weighing no more than 110 grains, especially at subsonic velocities. There were carbines with silencers, shooting standard 110 gr RN FMJ bullets with slightly reduced but still supersonic velocity. The complicated integral M1 silencer was next from needless..! Once again the designers were forgotten existence of "a sound barrier", which is able to annihilate silencing effect of the best and most expensive suppressor, despite of it's size and price..!

I don't know, whether or not you can acquire a silencer for your 7.62 x 25 mm Destroyer carbine, but the choice of it's caliber is reasonable.! This 107 years old cartridge is coming back strongly, while some more recent chamberings like 7.65 mm Parabellum /.30 Luger are gliding towards the merciless oblivion. It is easy to load that Borchardt cartridge to become a S.W.O.S. (Silent With/Out Silencer) cartridge or get an Absolute Silencing, even with a simple do-it-yourself silencer added.

This "Absolute Silencing" means that the shot is LESS noisy than the snap of a rifle hammer or striker without a cartridge in chamber and it's primer cushioning forwards movement of the firing pin. It was registered while shooting .22 CB Long cartridges from a rifle equipped with 80 years old PARKER-HALE design MM-I Sound Moderator but also from .308 Winchester rifle with Finnish BR-Tuote TX-8 suppressor. Cartridges were loaded with VihtaVuori N 310 powder, charge 3.1 grains, with swaged lead bullet of .32 S & W Long revolver cartridge, round points, with a weight 98 grains.

Good luck for your project !

12111999;  Pete


Do you have Diagram of Homemade Silencers for .223 1/7 twist? Thanks !


answer.GIF (573 bytes)  Are you planned to shoot subsonic (handloaded) cartridges only, or full-power loads too, including factory-loaded cartridges ? Homemade silencer is easy to build for subsonic loads but more difficult for cartridges with full charges.

What is that "diagram" ? A cross-sectional drawing ? With or without the dimensions ? In Metric or Imperial units of linear measures ? Do you know difference of subsonic and supersonic bullet velocity ? Are you a handloader ? Do you have experience on the cast bullet production ? Or can you acquire cast bullets (55 to 65 grains, diameter .224 or .225") for your handloads ? It is possible to SUPPRESS the shot of a full-power .223 factory-loaded or handloaded cartridge, but impossible to SILENCE the whole report of any weapon - including powerful air rifles - unless the muzzle velocity of a bullet is less than the velocity of sound in the ambient air, and you are looking for the diagram of a SILENCER.

It is shameful to answer questions with inquiries but I hope, you'll understand that we have several HUNDREDS of silencer designs in our archives. We need information on your specific necessities for picking of just the correct plan; not insufficient for your purposes while not overly complicated to become home-made. In the G.O.W. team is a designer of suppressors AND silencers, and an expert of special purpose cartridge handloads (me), but: "without anamnesis it is impossible to give a right diagnosis".

13111999;  Pete

More >>

<< Newest Q&A   More Q&A, part 3 >>   Part 2 >>   First Q&A, part 1 >>    Gunwriters    Link page       gunwlogo.GIF (2155 bytes)